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Monday, April 23, 2012

A chance meeting with Senate candidate Elizabeth Warren

[Welcome Mondoweiss readers! Welcome Naked Capitalism readers! Welcome Huffington Post readers! Welcome Corrente readers!]



Yesterday morning, I was in line outside a Somerville, MA breakfast joint, and who should come around introducing herself to the queued patrons but Democratic U.S. Senate candidate, Elizabeth Warren?

When she worked her way to where I was standing, I asked about her hawkish policies toward Iran, which are described thusly on her website:

Iran is a significant threat to the United States and our allies. Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons, it is an active state sponsor of terrorism, and its leaders have consistently challenged Israel’s right to exist. Iran’s pursuit of nuclear weapons is unacceptable because a nuclear Iran would be a threat to the United States, our allies, the region, and the world. The United States must take the necessary steps to prevent Iran from acquiring a nuclear weapon. I support strong sanctions against Iran and believe that the United States must also continue to take a leadership role in pushing other countries to implement strong sanctions as well. Iran must not have an escape hatch.

I asked why her stand is that Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons, when even the Obama administration admits there is no evidence Iran is building nuclear bombs or has decided it wants to.

Warren said she thinks the data says they are working on nuclear weapons.

I repeated that, no, even the administration says there's no evidence of that.

She said she'd look into it, saying it's important that political statements not to add fuel to the fire. I considered pointing out that the "fire" is our own creation, but I wanted to get to one more policy matter before she moved along.

I noted that the US is implementing what some Democrats call "crippling sanctions" against Iran, which seems awfully cruel, especially for something we don't even think they're doing, and added that I can't support that. I had forgotten that her official statement specifically advocated such sanctions, ominously urging "no escape hatch," otherwise I'd have asked why she'd enthusiastically joined that chorus.

Again, she said she'll look into it, and she thanked me for the helpful comment, as she began moving up the line.

I wish I'd gotten into the bigger ethical issue, "so what if Iran builds nuclear weapons," what gives us the moral right to kill Iranians over the effrontery to have the same weapon many other countries have.

Another great point Arthur Silber has repeatedly made makes me wonder if I missed the mark with my questions:

I maintain that you must always argue the policy, and that you must never argue about the intelligence. To the extent you argue the intelligence, you are doing the ruling class's bidding.

In the moment, I decided that the dissonance of Warren staking out a position plainly to the right of the warmongering Obama, who recently called compliance with some set of US demands a "last chance" for Iran, would be the best and quickest way to get her attention about the dreadfulness of her position. In such a brief, impromptu encounter, I don't think it would have been possible to plumb the fullness of what's wrong with her policy statement, which includes other questionable assumptions and assertions beyond those I've cited.

Warren would have to change her tune rather dramatically—not just to couching saber-rattling and sanctions with the administration's weasel-wording about "nuclear weapons capability"—for me not to consider this position alone very good reason to withhold my support.

* * *

I care much more about policy than niceties (who knew?), but for those who are curious... the tenor of our brief chat would fit most anybody's definition of "civil," and she was gracious about coming back for a photo after she'd started advancing toward the next restaurant patrons in line.

posted by Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy at 9:04 AM

39 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

The problem with arguing with the intelligence - actually the analysis vs. the collected material - is that is one is arguing with what the decision-makers want to hear, as opposed to what they need to hear. This is the essential breakdown in the U.S. intelligence community.

Arguing with beltway/insider intelligence analysis concedes the terms of the discussion to those who want to launch military attacks on Iran. Where the argument should start is with the policies - the underlying basis for what is now invariably rigged intelligence - and to demonstrate how they are not in the long-term best interests of the United States. There is actually plenty of information/intelligence out there to support that, and pretty much all one needs is open source.

9:28 AM  
Blogger Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy said...

Anonymous, on general principles, I fully agree with you and Arthur on that. Tactically, with very limited time, I chose my question as the one that would get her attention. Had I led with "we have no right to sanction and invade Iran even if it had the weapons you claim they're working on," she'd have likely shrugged and said some platitude about her responsibility to keep us safe. That she's overreaching even the militant stance of the Obama administration seemed far likely to give her pause in such a short, impromptu exchange.

That said, I am wringing my hands here about whether I should have gone with the big picture and the moral essence, rather than the tactical approach.

I think if I had it to do over again, I'd play it as I did, but further reflection and argument may lead me to rethink that.

9:46 AM  
Blogger Nell said...

Always a tough choice; I have the same internal debate every time there's an opportunity to talk about torture.

With the time and situational constraints, IMO you made the right call. Congratulations on taking good advantage of an unexpected opportunity!

1:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I wish I'd gotten into the bigger ethical issue, "so what if Iran builds nuclear weapons," what gives us the moral right to kill Iranians over the effrontery to have the same weapon many other countries have.

I don't think this a bad thing.

If you're a lawyer and manage to obtain surveillance camera footage showing police officers clandestinely planting heroin in your client's briefcase, you're going to hammer on the indisputable fact that your client was framed rather than bring up the constitutionality of drug prohibition.

I don't think it makes any sense whatsoever to debate the NPT itself, a murky and complicated subject if there ever was one, when the real issue, that there is no evidence of any NPT violation in the first place, is clear-cut and beyond reasonable dispute.

2:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The fact of the matter is, we ahve to have sanctions agaisnt Iran,because what WE ARE MOSTLY NOT BEING TOLD IS: both the USA and Great Britain have run up such monstrous amounts of debt in terms of not paying for the Iranian oil we have gotten, that our government officials now must posture that Iran is Bad, Bad, Bad. So it doesn't come out that the sanctions are merely a sleezy way to escape examination on how bankrupt our nations are. Lord Blackheath alludes to this when he touches on the Fifteen trillions of dollars that he cannot account for.
Google "Blackheath" + Parliament + fifteen trillion

5:08 PM  
Blogger Cujo359 said...

I don't think arguing the intelligence is such a bad thing here, when the intelligence appears to be interpreted by people around the President as Iran isn't trying to obtain nukes. If their authority figure isn't taking the bait why are Democratic pols like Warren?

You may have given her something to think about.

10:33 PM  
Blogger Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy said...

Cujo, I'm not sure I follow re: taking the bait.

Obama/Romney will decide the policy, and the intelligence will be sexed up accordingly or will be lost in the fog of gotta-do-it pre-war enthusiasm and panic.

Per Arthur's point, the intelligence is of no consequence, only the policy is.

11:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No matter what any government official may say publicly, only a very naive person would believe the Iranians are NOT trying to make nuclear weapons.

9:43 AM  
Blogger Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy said...

And what kind of person believes that would give us, who have so many nuclear weapons, the right to "cripple" Iranians and quite possibly bomb them?

9:47 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear VLWC,

I never said ANYTHING about anyone's "right" to kill or "cripple" anyone.

What I said is that one would have to be very naive to believe that Iran is not trying to develop nuclear weapons.

10:28 AM  
Blogger Chatham said...

Trying to gain the ability to make nuclear weapons is not the same as trying to make nuclear weapons.

10:31 AM  
Blogger Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy said...

The big question is "so what if Iran does have nuclear weapons or 'related program activities'?"

If we agree that the US has no moral right to bomb or otherwise abuse Iranians, absent any clear and present harm or threat, that transcends any speculation on our/our government's part.

10:43 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear VLWC,

I think you have put your finger on exactly WHY our government is denying that Iran is building or trying to build nuclear weapons -- there would be great consternation and huge fights about what our next move should or shouldn't be.

My ONLY point is that we are naive to think Iran is not trying to join the nuclear club.

10:49 AM  
Blogger Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy said...

Why are both parties engaging in brinksmanship with Iran, supporting sanctions and (pick one) implying or stating that Iran has nukes and must respond to our "last chance" demands?

The ObamaDems need to play this game because all the non-naive people know this "threat" exists and can only be pacified by muted denials and aggressive sanctions and saber-rattling?

10:56 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear VLWC,

In asking me to explain why our government is doing what it is doing, you are asking me to do the impossible. There is nothing rational about it (at least as far as we, the public, are aware).

11:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is no secret to making a nuclear weapon of the Hiroshima type; one can find instructions on the Internet.

The hard part is separating enough U235, and that takes a lot of time and industrial effort.

11:22 AM  
Blogger PunditusMaximus said...

It is entirely possible that Warren has never heard anyone say what you said. If you think she sounded genuinely surprised, then you did something which might help, which is the best anyone can do.

12:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Iran is just one of many issues U.S. Senators deal with and, overall, I prefer Elizabeth Warren's views on every policy over Scott Brown's views.

Here is Scott Brown's 2010 campaign website statement on Iran:

- - - - - - - -

"I support the bi-partisan Iran sanctions bill and believe that until Ahmadinejad gives up his nuclear ambitions he should be isolated from the rest of the world. With its reckless pursuit of nuclear weapons, Iran represents the biggest threat to Israel. Ahmadinejad is a Holocaust denier who has threatened to wipe Israel off the map. Meeting with him confers legitimacy when the only correct response is to treat him as an outcast. A personal meeting with Ahmadinejad, as suggested by my opponent, would embolden him and be used as a propaganda tool to strengthen his position."

1:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No matter what any government official may say publicly, only a very naive person would believe the Iranians are NOT trying to make nuclear weapons.

You're rehasing the Bush talking points from 2003, "There's no evidence they have any weapons, that proves just how sneaky they are!" Bullshit then, bullshit now.

2:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

VL, I don't know how much experience you have had interviewing political leaders but it seems to me you did a damned good job under the circumstances.

Warren is not unconscious. She knows full well just how stacked the deck is against Iran and the fact remains that her campaign -- never soft on terrorists -- is more important to her by far than the millions of people who are going to suffer crushing deprivations because of our sanctions.

Warren knows exactly how many Americans out of 100 will be aware of our disgraceful behavior and exactly how many Americans out of 100 will parrot Israeli propaganda. To her this issue is a statistical one.

It was great that you confronted her, but unrealistic and very human to clobber yourself for not asking the ultimate bear trap question.

7:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

-- from BBC News at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15643460:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The UN's nuclear watchdog says it has information indicating Iran has carried out tests "relevant to the development of a nuclear explosive device".

In its latest report on Iran, the IAEA says the research includes computer models that could only be used to develop a nuclear bomb trigger.

The report says that Iran has carried out activities "relevant to the development of a nuclear explosive device".

'Credible evidence'

The report highlights:

Tests of the [fast acting] detonators consistent with simulating the explosion of a nuclear device
"The acquisition of nuclear weapons development information and documentation from a clandestine nuclear supply network."
"Work on the development of an indigenous design of a nuclear weapon including the testing of components."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
IAEA Report at: http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Documents/Board/2012/gov2012-9.pdf

2:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear VLWC,

Why have you deleted my post with quotes from the IAEA report regarding Iran and its nuclear efforts?

5:39 PM  
Blogger Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy said...

It was caught in the spam queue, which I rarely check (and rarely need to). I wish Blogger notified me when a comment (which I receive in e-mail either way) gets trapped there.

6:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeah, he has comments emailed to him so he can delete the ones he disagrees with, because he's all for transparency everywhere except on his goofy little blog.

2:56 PM  
Blogger Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy said...

Um, comments ordinarily post instantly, and a copy is e-mailed to me. On rare occasion, some of those automatically end up in the spam catcher, and I don't always notice that very quickly, because the notification process is the same for both. That is, it appears to me that they've posted, unless I double-check the thread or remember to look in the spam queue.

But I am tiring of moronic trolls, so whoever you are, I request that you no longer post comments here.

3:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

VL, I think you played your opportunity well, given you were not expecting to meet with Prof. Warren (right?) and had to develop your strategy in very short time.

I'm impressed with her responsiveness to your comments, and, given that she probably has been briefed on some of the topics covered on her web, she quite likely has not come across all the info out there on Iran. And the MCM (Mainstream Corporate Media) sure has been pounding on Iran and beating the drums of war...albeit they're a bit more ranting on about Syria of late.

Good get. Some follow letter to Ms. Warren about the topic might not be amiss, commenters....

jawbone

3:49 PM  
Blogger Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy said...

Hi, Jawbone!

I can't say as I'm particularly impressed by any "responsiveness" on Warren's part. Her response was a standard "I'll take it under advisement." Pretty vanilla stuff, doesn't really indicate whether she's taking the criticism to heart or not, nor whether she'll even make a superficial change to her website (as of Thursday, 4/26/12 at 4:00PM it's unchanged).

Max Blumenthal, for one, publicly criticized her official Iran statement in late February.

Given the considerable negative response at Huffington Post about her Iran statement, in the wake of our encounter, I wouldn't be surprised to see some rewording, but I have a hard time believing that someone who put her name to something like that statement is suddenly going to see the light and repudiate the sanctions and saber-rattling and the mindset that makes it so easy for Americans to go down such a route.

4:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm just wondering if anyone here has bothered to read the IAEA Report at: http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Documents/Board/2012/gov2012-9.pdf

If you recall, it was Hans Blix (the United Nations' chief weapons inspector from 2000 to 2003) who informed George W. Bush that the IAEA inspectors were NOT finding any WMDs in Iraq and asked Bush to give the IAEA inspectors more time to complete their inspection. Needless, to say eager-George did not want to wait because he didn't care if there were or were not any WMDs in Iraq, he was going to invade. "There were about 700 inspections, and in no case did we find weapons of mass destruction," said Hans Blix, the Swedish diplomat called out of retirement to serve as the United Nations' chief weapons inspector from 2000 to 2003.

That is NOT the case with the IAEA inspectors this time, which you will note if you read the IAEA Report.

6:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here is the more detailed Nov. 8, 2011 IAEA Report on Iran’s nuclear efforts:
http://isis-online.org/uploads/isis-reports/documents/IAEA_Iran_8Nov2011.pdf

10:12 AM  
Blogger Karl Franz Ochstradt said...

Jeez, it's like nobody except VL ever bothers reading what Elizabeth Warren writes, or hearing what she says.

"Oh maybe you'll change her mind with that conversation, VL."

For pete's sake. She's a goat-roper, not some kind of detached, objective and neutral SuperBrain that just needs to hear VL's pitch. She's a corporate tool and wouldn't ever dream of departing from the Soft Fascist Donkeyparty Line.

Clue time, people. Clue time.

1:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And where does Scott Brown stand with regard to Iran and nuclear weapons?

-- excerpt from: http://www.wbur.org/2012/03/05/brown-kerry-iran

- - - -
[Senator John Kerry] added the U.S. was firm in its belief Iran "cannot have a nuclear weapon."

Also in Boston on Monday, Republican Sen. Scott Brown AGREED with Kerry on Iran's obtaining a weapon, but said more decisive action is necessary.

"Iran's tentacles are everywhere, and they are emboldened, and we need to make sure that they do not get a nuclear weapon," Brown said.

"We've given the president the tools to do the job and not only deal with INCREASED SANCTIONS but to deal with the currency issues, to try to work do destabilize their currency and central bank so we can bring some real economic pressure on them," Brown said.

- - - - - - - - - -
Seems Scott Brown wants to tighten the screws on Iran, eh?

4:06 PM  
Blogger Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy said...

1. I don't care what the IAEA says about Iran's nuclear weapons capability. We have no moral right to starve or attack Iran for (potentially or otherwise) having the same weapon other countries have.

2. I'll be doing a cartoon about how Scott Brown's comparably awful position changes everything.

4:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Step One: Determine if Iran is trying to make nuclear weapons.

Step Two: Decide what to do if Iran is trying to make nuclear weapons.

My only goal here is to shed some light on Step One.

After that every American has a right to state an opinion on Step Two. I have not expressed an opinion on Step Two, but skipping over Step One seems to be an unenlightened way to proceed.

5:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Iran signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, making Iran's nuclear program subject to IAEA verification.

6:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The evidence that Iran modeled triggers for nuclear devices comes entirely from one laptop of unknown provenance supplied to the IAEA by a rogue nation which refuses to sign the NPT.

It's old news. Every 2-3 years it's trotted out as if it was some great ground breaking finding.

While the inspectors on the ground in Iran continue to report no diversion of any uranium, in any stage of enrichment, we find that this ancient unverifiable evidence is suddenly some sort of "smoking gun".

If you want to know why, it's a good idea to google "IAEA Wikileaks".

1:47 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In signing the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, Iran agreed to regular IAEA inspections of its nuclear program.

In turn, Iran was given intellectual, physical and material assistance in getting its nuclear program going.

The agreement requires that Iran NOT develop nuclear weapons, and that is what the IAEA inspections are all about. But now, having been given all that assistance, by many nations, Iran will not let the IAEA inspectors in to look at parts of their nuclear program that have no practical use other than for weapons.

Under the "Atoms for Peace" program (initiated by President Dwight David Eisenhower), the United States supplied equipment and information to schools, hospitals, and research institutions within the U.S. and throughout the world. The first nuclear reactors in Iran were built under the "Atoms for Peace" program by American Machine and Foundry.

Readers here might find the history of Iran's nuclear program interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_program_of_Iran

9:07 AM  
Blogger Romberry said...

@Anonymous: You keep referring to the IAEA and it's stance on Iran at this time, but I wonder if you actually read your own links or if you just throw them up and hope that they stick.

Check the IAEA sub-section of your own Wikipedia link on the Nuclear program of Iran. What you see there is consistent and repeated reference to reports from the IAEA refuting the idea there was any evidence at all that Iran was actively engaged in a nuclear weapons program....until 2009.

What happened in 2009? Mohamed El Baradei left his position as Director General of the IAEA and was replaced by someone who met with the approval of the Obama admin. And why did the new Director General meet with the approval of the Obama admin? Because the new DG was someone that was, uh, "more amenable" to seeing things the way the admin wanted them to be seen.

In El Baradei's final speech to the IAEA board of governors in June of 2009 he said "the agency has been able to continue to verify the non-diversion of declared nuclear material in Iran" And in an interview with Der Spiegel in the summer of 2010 he said "I do not believe that the Iranians are actually producing nuclear weapons. . . .[I]n general, the danger of a nuclear-armed Iran is overestimated; some even play it up intentionally."

So what we have here is an agency that under the leadership of El Baradei was resistant to political pressure to return reports saying what some people wanted to hear but which under the leadership of the current DG is perhaps much less resistant and far more willing to please.

The warnings about Iran being an imminent threat to obtain nuclear weapons now extends back at least twenty years. How long and how often do those claims have to be shown to be wrong before overly credulous people stop saying silly things like "only a very naive person would believe the Iranians are NOT trying to make nuclear weapons"? Come on, man. Think!

7:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Romberry:

The point IS that Iran signed an agreement that provided Iran with intellectual, material and construction assistance (from many nations) in getting its nuclear program going.

In return for that assistance, Iran AGREED to inspections by the IAEA.

It is now refusing to permit IAEA inspections and is engaging in activities the only scientific purpose of which would be to make weapons.

You report on the year 2009; it is now 2012. Circumstances change.

3:21 PM  
OpenID myiq2xu said...

"Sancho! My armor!"

8:16 AM  

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